Remote work

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Mark McGranaghan (00:00:00)

Everyone gets into a room, you have a brainstorm and out comes the ideas. The reality is so much messier. You have individual to group and back again. You're bouncing around among individuals. You're bouncing around among different levels of fidelity. The ideas get mutated, even corrupted as they get passed from person to person. Almost like this pulsating network, right, with all kinds of weird patterns happening is what's really needed to produce good ideas. So the substrate, the tool, needs to embrace that.

Adam Wiggins (00:00:26)

Hello and welcome to Metamuse. Muse is a tool for deep work on iPad and Mac, but this podcast isn't about Muse the product. It's about the small team and the big ideas behind it. I'm Adam Wiggins, here with Mark McGranaghan. Hey Adam. And Mark, I'm excited to say that we've given a name to the next major release of Muse. We're calling it Muse for Teams, and we've got the alpha program underway right now.

Mark McGranaghan (00:00:58)

Yeah, we've had this phase penciled into the master plan for years, and it's great to see us finally bringing it to fruition.

Adam Wiggins (00:01:04)

Exactly, yeah, really is a whole other dimension. I think it's true of most tools, you know, whether it's a video editor or a word processor or whatever else, that you add some kind of multiplayer collaboration or sharing capability, and it really is a whole new dimension to the tool. But I think that's doubly so for Muse, which is an ideation space. So, you know, when I'm going to start a new project, for example, first thing I'm going to do is make a board to sit down and essentially get my thoughts together on it.

Adam Wiggins (00:01:30)

And so here doing that with a team, when that team is starting a project, well, we're finding it to be very powerful indeed and sort of almost a multiplier effect on the value of the rest of the product. So it's a lot of fun. We've got a little demo video online. I'll link that in the show notes.

Adam Wiggins (00:01:45)

And yeah, we have a couple dozen teams and the alpha program here really giving the local first sync and sort of the capabilities, the product, a solid pummeling here, where we hope it can stand up to everyone's needs, as well as we continue to just discover what are the most interesting things to add in the collaborative setting. You know, we start with the obvious stuff like comments, for example, but I think there's a lot of non-obvious stuff that we'll get to pretty quickly. So very exciting stuff.

Adam Wiggins (00:02:12)

And of course, I'll put all the necessary links for that in the show notes, but I thought it'd be a great chance to talk about something we've mentioned in passing in a number of episodes, which is remote work. So that's our topic for today. And of course the Muse team is all remote. And part of the reason it's so salient, I think, is the Muse for Teams product as it's shaping up for us in our internal use, but also with our customers in this alpha here is really seeing the role it can play for, especially for remote first teams.

Adam Wiggins (00:02:41)

So there's a lot of interplay between how we personally think about remote work, I think, and where we're going to go with the product. a funny one, one thing that occurred to me, or if I was a listener of this podcast and I saw it pop up in my feed, I would think, hmm, remote work, wasn't that a hot topic circa 2016? You know, I seem to remember a lot of blog posts and especially medium posts when that was the hot thing. Actually right around the same time that I shifted to remote work, which was, we started Ink and Switch in 2015.

Adam Wiggins (00:03:37)

We started that as an all remote research lab, always figured, well, you know, this will work to get started. But once we scale up, you know, we'll need to get serious or whatever and get an office. And that never happened. And I think the remote nature actually unlocked new possibilities for how we could do these research projects and the kinds of people we could bring in.

Adam Wiggins (00:03:55)

And it turned out to be, in addition to just having these benefits of letting us focus on the business rather than, I don't know, office leases also seem to have these other benefits as well. But at least I remember in that time, the 2015, 2016 window, most of the posts were really from the perspective of individual contributors who were basically saying, hey, I want to reclaim my commuting time, or I want to be able to be home from my kid's bedtime, or I want to eat healthy, you know, listing out the benefits to an individual contributor.

Adam Wiggins (00:04:25)

And I think the timing there was probably also not a coincidence that that was probably around the time this kind of first generation stack of tools, that's Slack, Zoom, Google Docs, Figma, and obviously those are all slightly different age pieces of software.

Adam Wiggins (00:04:40)

But I feel like there was a critical mass of you could put together some subset of those and get a pretty good working collaboration, not certainly at the same level of bandwidth as working in an office, but maybe you kind of crossed a threshold where the benefits started to exceed the cost or where it was even possible, maybe was one way to put it.

Mark McGranaghan (00:05:00)

Yeah, at least for the vanguard of individuals and companies, I think it is true that, call it around 2016, there was a lot of discussion about it. But I would say it's probably from a pretty vocal minority, which I don't mean in any negative way. But if you look at the bulk of economic production in the software industry, it was done by on-location firms. And in the past few years, that has turned over in a big way. So you get a whole new swath of data to talk to.

Adam Wiggins (00:05:26)

Indeed, yeah. Well, I guess it was 2020 that it suddenly seemed that every single person I knew became aware of what Zoom was. And of course, we'd been using that piece of software along with many others for some time and had developed habits and techniques about social mores and just ways to use them effectively. And so the whole world was kind of getting a crash course on that and accelerating the adoption of these tools. And you could argue that there was maybe even an almost an over-exuberance. I don't know if exuberance is the right term.

Adam Wiggins (00:05:57)

I guess it's just like we were forced into, the whole world was forced into this or as much of the world as it was feasible to do, which is basically most knowledge workers as well as schools. And that in turn probably caused a lot of Silicon Valley folks and investors and so forth to think, okay, this is a huge market. And indeed, if you looked at the stock price of Zoom at one point, I mean, it was pretty wild.

Adam Wiggins (00:06:18)

In the middle of the pandemic somewhere, its peak, I think I saw some stat that it was something like the market cap of Zoom was larger than all of the airlines combined in that moment, all the U.S. airlines combined in that moment. And of course their stock was massively down. And you look at many of these companies that did well, e-commerce and so forth, in the pandemic. And if you look at the five-year graph of their stock, they had this huge boom over the pandemic time and essentially have returned a little bit more to earth since then.

Adam Wiggins (00:06:48)

And so I think in some senses there was almost a boom in investment and new people working on Zoom alternatives and things like that. And maybe in some ways here now, 2022, 2023, we're kind of going back to the office and maybe folks are like, okay, maybe that wasn't as big of a boom as we thought. But I almost feel like this is looking at the hype cycle curve, you know, again, it's weird to call the hype cycle because it was necessity, but that peak that we had in the 2020, 2021 period was kind of like that peak in the hype cycle curve.

Adam Wiggins (00:07:20)

And where we are now is maybe a trough where it was overhyped or overdone or something. But actually now we have a lot of data, like you said, about like what the benefits are, what the downsides are, and we can feed that into how we develop practices and tools.

Mark McGranaghan (00:07:36)

Yeah, and I think it's a more healthy and honestly more interesting place now. During the height of the pandemic, where you basically weren't allowed to go outside, you really feel on top of the world if you're a remote software provider, because people have no choice. Right? Or if you're Uber Eats or something, right? You're just making money hand over fist, because people don't have any other option. But now you have to confront the reality of success can't just be you can do it and you enjoy working from home in your pajamas or whatever.

Mark McGranaghan (00:08:00)

It has to be you successfully produce valuable software for your customers. And some people are going to try to do that remotely. Some people are going to try to do that from the office. And your proposed mechanism has to be successful in delivering those goods.

Adam Wiggins (00:08:13)

Yes, well, we'll get to see kind of how these companies perform in the market, the companies that choose to be co-located in the same place, invest in an office, get all the benefits that come with that high bandwidth, maybe more personal trust and human connections and things like that. But of course, there's a literal and logistical cost there and maintaining offices and requiring people be in the same physical place and so forth. And so we can compare the teams that do that against the teams that don't.

Adam Wiggins (00:08:41)

And I hope there's room for both possibilities in the world, or maybe we'll discover certain types of products or ventures, sort of demand, co-location and others it's less important for. So yeah, the grand laboratory of the free market will give us a lot of information. Maybe we can start with the kind of personal motivations of what's called knowledge workers or creative workers. This would have been some of the contents of those medium posts circa 2016.

Adam Wiggins (00:09:10)

And I think the lifestyle aspect, the flexibility, being able to control your workspace, reclaiming that commute time is obviously part of it. Are there others, either for you personally or you've heard others discuss?

Mark McGranaghan (00:09:25)

I think a big one is location flexibility, especially as the lifestyle quality in certain American cities was declining. And also some people just didn't want to live in America. Like you know, you want to move to Germany, there would have been a time where you would have basically written yourself out of most of the software industry, if you did that, but now you're still very much in the game. So I do think location flexibility is, but some people wanted to move closer to their kids or to their parents. Right?

Mark McGranaghan (00:09:50)

I think that's a pretty big one because there was a time where there was only really a handful of cities that you had to be in if you wanted to be at the top tier of pure software firms.

Mark McGranaghan (00:10:02)

And that's no longer the case, which is great. Yeah, and you might put this in flexibility, but I think a big one is just control over your physical work environment towards the end of the peak of the cycle in San Francisco. It was getting pretty wild with how tightly they were packing people in there. You just couldn't hear yourself think, right? At least I couldn't. So people would go in with like, you know, earplugs plus noise canceling headphones to try to get any work done. Meanwhile, you're combating all of the mechanical keyboards.

Mark McGranaghan (00:11:06)

Anyways, it's just being able to go to an office that is soundproofed and you know, cars driving by all over the place. It was a big win.

Adam Wiggins (00:11:15)

Yeah, control over your personal space, which includes, yeah, obviously things like desk or chair, noise levels. Honestly, some people like more, right? They got to go to a coffee shop where there's some hustle and bustle for them to be able to think, whereas, yeah, more of a fire room kind of person. And then you've also got the element of your hardware. So there's your desk set up. There's your, again, the mechanical keyboard or not. There's what kind of headphones do you have, that sort of thing.

Adam Wiggins (00:11:41)

And obviously companies do potentially give you the option to make purchases, but I think this leads maybe a little bit to the call, maybe the responsibilities of being a remote worker, which is a lot more self-management. And so that's something like, yeah, when it comes to hardware, certainly everyone on the Muse team, I don't know exactly how our other teams do it, but we basically say, okay, here's your budget. Basically make sure you have the right hardware to do this job.

Adam Wiggins (00:12:06)

And sometimes that's podcasting mics and sometimes it's iPads and pencils and sometimes it's just a really fast computer, but it's sort of really kind of more up to you. And in that sense, you know, closer to being a freelancer, you need that ability to make wise decisions about, okay, I'm going to spend this money. I'm going to spend this money for equipment in order to maximize my productivity as well as my just comfort and enjoyment of the job.

Adam Wiggins (00:12:31)

And then it'd be remiss if I didn't mention an idea here that comes from Hillary Maloney, someone we collaborated with a little while back, who had this concept of a work idealist. And she actually discovered this in looking through our customer feedback and kind of some different surveys and things and trying to understand the kind of person that wants to use and purchase Muse. And I found this was so interesting.

Adam Wiggins (00:12:53)

I would not have in any way zoomed in on this and thinking about our target customer, but she defined it as someone who is not doing the work. They're just for the paycheck, if that's the right way to put it, but they're driven to be in tech or a creative field of some kind because they feel they can find a lot of meaning there and they want to bring their strategic skills, their creativity, their intellect to the table to work on something they find intellectually interesting, challenge. So it's really interesting, challenging, meaningful.

Adam Wiggins (00:13:22)

Obviously it's a great privilege of being in a field where your skills are in demand to be able to kind of go higher up the Maslow's hierarchy, I guess, in the work you're doing. But it's really true. We do have this option. And one way you can choose to optimize your career is say, well, I've got a set of skills, whether it's design or software engineering or product manager or whatever. And therefore I'm going to use that to maximize my compensation, which usually is probably going and getting a big comp package from a FANG company.

Adam Wiggins (00:13:51)

But another way to think about it, which of course is the decision I think you and I have made as well as everyone on the Muse team is actually we want a balance of things. We want to be compensated reasonably, but we also want the kind of work life and meaningful mission in the company and values in the company.

Adam Wiggins (00:14:08)

And frankly, part of that is the flexibility in our day to be able to spend our work time and our creative energy in the time and place of our choosing, if that makes sense, or at least something that finds a balance between the needs of the greater team and the company and what we would like to do personally in terms of how we work best. Another one of the items in her kind of breakdown of this work idealist persona was the concept of actively designing your day and in particular designing it to maximize your focus work.

Adam Wiggins (00:14:39)

That could be something like the deep work concept. You need a big block of time. You're going to mark that off in your calendar. You're going to aggressively defend it from meetings. But that also just connects to the workspace exactly as you said that you have a quiet space at home and you can, unlike in an office, you can turn off distractions by turning off your notifications and choosing to really focus on something. And it's a lot harder to do in an office. There's some meeting happening. Hey, there's the all hands. Hey, we're going to lunch.

Adam Wiggins (00:15:06)

And sometimes being connected to that is part of the value of being in an office. You have this ambient energy and this kind of natural background hubbub of activity that you can hook into. But then if you are someone that wants to design your day to be able to spend your precious work hours in the most productive way that you can, that gives you less agency on that front.

Mark McGranaghan (00:15:28)

Yeah. So lots of potential benefits from the staff side. How about looking at it from the point of view of a company going remote? What are the benefits, challenges, and considerations there?

Adam Wiggins (00:15:40)

The huge thing that I didn't really realize going into what a big deal it would be, but is the ability to hire from the global talent pool. So when we started IncanSwitch and it was just a few of us and we decided to work together remotely and I was really thinking of it in that perspective of that. As a person on the team, this is just useful for me and how I want to live my life in the moment. But once I was in the position of staffing up projects and looking for people, particularly in the very, very specific areas we were trying to hire for.

Adam Wiggins (00:16:10)

I mean, I remember we were going to look for someone to work with on some CRDT projects circa 2016. And we made a list of everyone who had expertise with that in the world and the list was like 10 people. Right. And they were, of course, spread all over the world as you might expect. And so being able to potentially have the ability to hire any one of them and especially on a short-term basis. So this is something I've done a lot of in my career, which is you work hard to recruit someone, but then getting them to relocate can be a huge deal.

Adam Wiggins (00:16:42)

I mean, first of all, obviously moving is a big deal for people. It's expensive. It's emotionally demanding. But then you often have immigration things, right, where you have folks who are, in some cases, it takes them years to get the visa they need to come work with you. And then if you do get in the thing where someone comes works with you for a little while, turns out it's not a fit and you've gone through all this and they've uprooted their life.

Adam Wiggins (00:17:04)

Boy, it becomes really hard to consider for them to think about quitting, especially if it's tied to their immigration, on the employer side to think about letting them go because you just know what a huge deal this was to work together. And with remote, you say, what are you available? Well, next week. Great, let's start working together. And it's just a much more lightweight operation. You sort of decoupled all of these other life choices from your employment.

Adam Wiggins (00:17:31)

And so that's this huge benefit on the employer side, the team builder side, the company side is that global talent pool and the lightweight hiring process. And I think that single benefit is so big that it basically makes up for a huge number of other downsides of remote work.

Mark McGranaghan (00:17:50)

Yeah, that's a great point. And I feel like it's still underappreciated in the market. People have spent their whole careers with this baseline, unremarked upon assumption of because it's so expensive in many different senses to relocate someone in order for it to make sense, it has to be a longer term commitment or at least expectation. And we've removed that constraint, but it hasn't fully propagated through the system, I would say. But while that's the case, it's to our advantage for sure.

Adam Wiggins (00:18:20)

Now, there's a call it administrative piece of this as well, which is increasingly you can kind of decouple the legal jurisdiction of the entity, the employee location and yeah, the owner location, which is quite interesting. I think Stripe Atlas was the first mover on this.

Adam Wiggins (00:18:39)

Firstbase is another company that makes it easy to just incorporate a US legal entity, whether or not you're located in the US. You also have up and coming services like Wwise, which makes it really easy to do currency conversions and sort of international transfers, or you got something like DEEL, D-E-E-L, which is kind of like an international HR kind of platform.

Adam Wiggins (00:19:02)

And all of these things acknowledge this reality of that I think in some ways probably the legal frameworks that exist haven't quite gotten up to yet, which is you have what I've sometimes heard referred to as micro nationals. The Muse team would fit into that, right? We have some folks from Europe, we have some folks from the United States. And historically, if a company got big enough to have teams in two different countries, let alone two different continents, you would be huge.

Adam Wiggins (00:19:25)

And so of course you could set up maybe, I don't know, all kinds of HR process and things like that to kind of manage the relationship between the legal entities and the employees and comply with all the local labor laws and things like that. But now it's quite common, even just a founding team, just two people who are going to work together might be from two different countries and they don't have any plans to relocate or whatever. Where do you incorporate? Where is your bank account?

Adam Wiggins (00:19:50)

And I think increasingly it's become possible and even a common practice to think of the jurisdiction where the company lies is.

Adam Wiggins (00:20:00)

Yeah, so completely independent of where the employees may happen to be located. Now you still have to deal with lots of complexity potentially moving between them. So as one example, certainly the fluctuating USD to euro currency conversion rates in the later part of 2022 is a challenge for the Muse team. But it really is possible to have a small team where people are located in different countries. And yeah, you can kind of make so much of this virtual and do all that in a way that's legal and practical.

Mark McGranaghan (00:20:31)

Yeah, it's definitely very doable now and only getting better with these various services that you've mentioned. Frankly, it's a bit of a mess, like currency conversion and tax law and employment law. It's like it's kind of all over the place. But just crying through that and it's very doable.

Adam Wiggins (00:20:44)

There's a great article I read a couple of years back called The Legal Implications of Remote, which I think was someone looking at the UK specifically. But I think the general concepts are broadly applicable, which is honestly it's not a fully well fleshed out area of law because it is so new. And especially if you think of something like workplace safety, which isn't really a huge concern for knowledge workers for the most part. But you have someone like our colleague Julia. She's a German citizen. We're a US-based company.

Adam Wiggins (00:21:13)

She spends several months of every year in the winter months, usually in someplace like Mexico or someplace in Central or South America. And if she has a workplace injury when she is a citizen of one country employed by a company based in another country while she is physically in a third country, which labor laws apply there? And yeah, it's a brave new world. Now, one thing we considered when we set up Muse was the compensation question. GitLab has some nice documents on this where they have their kind of weighted.

Adam Wiggins (00:21:46)

They have a weighting relative to basically where you live, because, of course, it's pretty normal to pay rates that are relative to your local market. So this is a bit of a debate. You know, is it you just pay everyone the same or do you weight it according to where you happen to live? Does that create opportunities for people to move somewhere? You even have companies who have paid you to move someplace less expensive. What do you think about that debate?

Mark McGranaghan (00:22:10)

Folks understandably developed very strong opinions about this matter, but a lot of what I've seen is a little bit, I think, too shallow and doesn't address the dynamics. I think you need to understand this is a process that's playing out over time. So let me use a little economic story example. Let's say that initially you have like two markets. You have the high end software market and the regular software market, and those are strictly geographically colloquial.

Mark McGranaghan (00:22:38)

Or people on the high end software market get paid twice as much for whatever reason, you know, cost of living, make something up due to where they are. And you can't work across those boundaries. And then some single individual invented a magical technology, let's call it Voom, and they can work on either side. What should their compensation be? Now, there's two kind of legitimate arguments.

Mark McGranaghan (00:23:01)

There's the argument of I'm doing the same work, and even though I'm from a moderate cost area, since I'm doing the same work as your highly paid employees in the new area, I should be paid twice as much. Or it should be your cost of living or whatever you want to make up is only half of our other employees in this high cost area. Therefore, you should be paid your old wage, which corresponded to your old cost of living. And what this shows is that the actual issue is that there's a lot of surplus generated. That's an economic term, which

Mark McGranaghan (00:23:26)

That's an economic term, which is basically a difference between the value that's being produced and the cost of producing it, right? And the question becomes how you allocate that surplus. Does it all go to the employer? Does it all go to the employee or is there some mix? And when you phrase it in that way, you see that the idea that it should be exactly equal to one of those two extremes is a little bit doubtful to me. So what I expect is over time, the markets blend.

Mark McGranaghan (00:23:54)

So while you're in that initial step of the process, where there's very few people who are crossing geographic boundaries, there's big surpluses that are unlocked. But it's also very contentious to negotiate the salaries because deciding how to split up that pie. And we've seen that play out with very strongly worded statements about you should definitely pay full SF rate or you should definitely pay cost of living rate.

Mark McGranaghan (00:24:14)

But what's going to happen over time is this is basically going to become one market, I would think, where in the fully remote world, your salary is going to be a function of your effectiveness or your believed effectiveness. And if it's really the case, you know, asterisk, if it's really the case that there's no difference on your impact and productivity for the company based on where you live, that will be reflected in salaries. Now, by the way, that goes both ways.

Mark McGranaghan (00:24:38)

It might be the case that it becomes uneconomical to be a software developer in San Francisco, it's too expensive versus the market rates in the same way that's uneconomical to be like a textile factory in San Francisco. I think we're far from that, but I do expect and if it's true, if the premise is true that we're moving to a fully remote world and that's just as effective as a local world, then I think things will equilibrate and that will have some winners and losers.

Mark McGranaghan (00:25:01)

But it's not going to be that everyone in the world gets paid what was formerly the very top rate. I think that's unlikely.

Mark McGranaghan (00:25:07)

And by the way, this also connects nicely to an element of personal responsibility. And this ties into a little bit how we approach Muse. A company can say, we think kind of a fair global market value for software engineering services is X. And you can choose to live wherever you want with that. If you want to live in Mexico, for example, with very low cost of living, and you're able to work there and it's in the right time zone, great.

Mark McGranaghan (00:25:31)

If for whatever reason, like say you have family in New York City, you really want to live there, you know, okay, you know, we're also not obligated to support you and wanting to live closely to your family. Maybe you should find another job. So there's kind of an element of personal responsibility and finding a good match with the company in the market.

Adam Wiggins (00:25:49)

Right. So we've sort of described here why a knowledge worker or creative person would be motivated to work remotely, a lot of which has to do with flexibility and autonomy and their lifestyle. We've talked about the company's motivation, namely around hiring, accessing a global talent pool, perhaps even this compensation piece of the puzzle.

Adam Wiggins (00:26:08)

But we're sort of talking about it as if, well, obviously this is something that can and should be really broadly distributed, but in some ways we've seen quite a retraction in recent time from the peak of remote work. People are going back to the office, so to speak. And we mentioned kind of towards the beginning that part of what made this start to become possible, indeed what made us founding and switches a remote first team, what was found in Muse's remote first team was the toolkit.

Adam Wiggins (00:26:34)

That Zoom plus Slack plus GitHub plus Figma plus Notion plus a few other of these products, you put those together in the right combination and with the right set of practices and you have something where you can get to 60, 70, 80 percent of the productivity of an in-person team but with all these other benefits and that sort of cross some threshold of like, okay, this is the cost succeed, the benefits. But that brings us to Muse for Teams.

Adam Wiggins (00:27:06)

So we're working on this product here now and we always knew we wanted a multiplayer component of Muse, but in the process of actually starting to roll it out to our first users and customers and using it for ourselves and realizing how much how we think about remote work and how much we work as a company is baked into the product vision as too concrete a word, more like our set of problems that we want to work on in the territory that we want to operate in, I think is really a lot about saying, hey, we think we have something we can contribute to the remote work tool chain, something that is missing right now.

Mark McGranaghan (00:27:42)

Yeah, and in particular, we see Muse as a tool to help you and now your team have better ideas to ideate. And there's good remote tools for more transactional and production-oriented work. You can have collaborative databases and spreadsheets and you can produce things like presentations and UI designs together. Obviously, you can convey transactional messages in something like email or Slack.

Mark McGranaghan (00:28:09)

But what replaces the work that used to be done over the whiteboard, around the punch table, as you're taking a walk outside with your colleague, that's a place where we see Muse video.

Adam Wiggins (00:28:21)

Yeah, I think one thing that's missed in the discussion of to office or not to office is the fact that different parts of the work benefit from being in person quite differently. And there's a lot of intangible things about like culture transmission and so forth. But putting that aside for just a moment, I do think that just looking at the, I had the first spark of an idea to, I shipped it to customers or to a client.

Adam Wiggins (00:28:47)

There are certain parts that are more production-oriented and heads down an individual that probably are just as good to go, for example, go back and forth on a pull request in GitHub. Whereas there's other parts that are more loose, sketchy, still trying to figure it out. You need the high bandwidth of being together and kind of gesturing. And we often talk about being in front of a whiteboard.

Adam Wiggins (00:29:08)

And partially that's about the whiteboard, but I think we use it as a stand-in for that kind of meeting where you're trying to get together with your collaborators and figure out what you're even, but even if it's a problem or really trying to develop an idea. And that's the sort of thing that I think is very hard to do in these tools, which as you said, are typically designed to be transactional. You send the email, you send the Slack message. I think people tend to use, or certainly we've seen this from our customer interviews and so forth.

Adam Wiggins (00:29:40)

We've seen Google Docs, Notion to some extent, kind of write up ideas and then they go back and forth in the comments, but it's all just very structured and it's all very kind of flat in a way. And yeah, I think that is sort of the big gap in the tool chain right now.

Mark McGranaghan (00:29:57)

Yeah. And we'll talk more about this when we turn to how well and whether remote works, but importantly this ideation thing, you can get away for a while without doing it or in particular having coasted on your previous ideas.

Mark McGranaghan (00:30:11)

So if you're in an office together and you're coming up with all these great ideas, high-level designs, directions, then you can go and produce and transact for, I don't know, a year or two. Basically in this direction and it can work quite well. But it's only when you're two or three years in that you realize, wait, we need better ideas, but we can't do it because we don't have the appropriate medium and tools.

Mark McGranaghan (00:30:31)

So I think part of the reason why we're, as an industry, only slowly starting to realize the gap here is that it actually takes a while for it to become apparent.

Adam Wiggins (00:30:40)

So mentioning whiteboards naturally leads one to talk about another category of software, which is the infinite canvas kind of collaborative whiteboards. I feel like there's quite a few of these, some of which have been really successful in the last few years. Miro is probably one of the biggest ones. Figma launched FigJam a couple of years ago, and there's numbers of others as well. So one question would be, we still feel the need to build news.

Adam Wiggins (00:31:05)

And obviously we can talk about the personal tool and what we do there, but I guess the question would be, why doesn't Miro scratch the itch? If we're saying we need to have good ideas in front of a whiteboard, Miro gives you a virtual whiteboard. Case closed?

Mark McGranaghan (00:31:18)

Well, I certainly think there's something there with tools like Miro. I had also used Mylanote in the past, but I found myself using those more for visual presentation of multimedia ideas and collecting multimedia data like mood boards and doing almost like PowerPoint-type presentations, where you had something you wanted to share, but it wasn't appropriate for something like a linear Notion document. But it's also quite polished and rectilinear and high fidelity, and we've talked about how that isn't always conducive to ideation.

Mark McGranaghan (00:31:57)

It's also very focused on the desktop. It doesn't really have a strong iPad presence. So I think there's something there, and there's a lot of overlap and elements that we share, but I think there's a slightly different focus and emphasis.

Adam Wiggins (00:32:10)

Yeah, I've posed this question to myself over the last couple of years when we were working on Muse, whenever I think about when we get to that stage of multiplayer, which again was always the kind of step three in our master plan. And we've tried using these products ourselves internally for team planning and things like that, including exactly Mylanote, Miro, FigJam, Apple's got Freeform now.

Adam Wiggins (00:32:34)

Yeah, there's a long tail of these that we've tried out, and yeah, they never really, in some cases I'm like, oh, that's pretty neat, but they don't really stick. I don't find myself wanting to come back to them or reference it again. You certainly can't use them, in some cases literally can't use them, but perhaps you just see they aren't built for personal thinking. So I'm never sure what to think when I try out a product like this, but it doesn't really stick for me.

Adam Wiggins (00:32:56)

Does that make me go, huh, maybe this whole idea of an infinite canvas with multiplayer capability is not as useful as I would have thought. Maybe we shouldn't bother to build it. But the other interpretation is more the now famous story of what the Dropbox founder told investors when they asked him, why are you building this? There's hundreds of products that purport to do this exact same thing in the market, and he basically says, well, do you use any of them? And they say no. And he says, well, that's because no one's done it right yet.

Adam Wiggins (00:33:24)

I'm going to do it right. And indeed he did. So whether Muse can be as useful and successful as Dropbox remains to be seen, but one of my takeaways for me is like, okay, there's something there with those products, and indeed I have to use some of them somewhat extensively. But in the end, I feel like they don't quite hit the mark for me. And so, yeah, we're going to take our swing at what it could be.

Adam Wiggins (00:33:47)

Now, the vision of what Muse for Teams will be, what actually happens when you add multiplayer capability to this previously more kind of private ideation space is something that we're discovering as we go. But I think already based on what we talked about here and ideas we've developed on the team generally, you can see there's already some kind of principles that are emerging, right? We talked about the benefit of an office and being in an office for those early ideation stages.

Adam Wiggins (00:34:12)

Well, one thing that we're finding ourselves thinking of Muse as is kind of like a virtual office where it's this place you can go where you can get ambient awareness of what everyone's working on, for example. And once we have that frame, it leads us to implementing features like, for example, the fact that the avatars for your colleagues are always visible no matter where they are in the workspace. So it has this kind of one continuous world feeling.

Adam Wiggins (00:34:36)

Whether that's the right thing or not, we're actually going to find that out, obviously, through real world usage. But I think that's an example of something where we can take what we've learned from those first generation tools, for example, Figma. I think one of the reasons it does so well or struck such a chord is it has the sense of place you feel like you're gathering with your colleagues on this document. But of course, that's within the document. It's within that one document. If you go to a different document, you've lost track of them.

Adam Wiggins (00:35:06)

And so with the Muse kind of world, you are able to have ambient sense of where people are and what they're doing. You see where they are. You can kind of peek in if you want, but that's sort of rude a little bit. And yeah, it actually gives me a lot of energy to see all avatars just kind of moving around on this big kind of space of like nested whiteboards, if you want to think of it that way. And yeah, it's kind of like a fun way to meet. It feels like a place to meet. And how much can that be a replacement for what we get out of offices?

Adam Wiggins (00:35:38)

I'm not sure, but that's what we're going to find out through this process.

Mark McGranaghan (00:35:43)

Yeah, I think it's really important to dial in carefully to why and how ideation works. I think the high level answer for why not Tool X in the past has been it doesn't quite resonate with how ideation really works. And importantly, the reality of that has no obligation to basically make sense to you or to be fair or to be simple or to be straightforward. It might be, for example, that seeing little circles with your friends' faces on them next to a document makes you much more inclined to go there and look at it.

Mark McGranaghan (00:36:15)

And that regardless of the document itself, and that's just the way people are. People are messy. And there's all kinds of weird stuff like that with ideation. Another one of my favorites is maybe you have better ideas when you're sitting down in a couch than when you're at your desk. You know, maybe not, but you got to be open to weird stuff like that. And what we try to do with Muse is really tune into those weird principles of ideation that have maybe been lost to the rectangles on the screen focused at its traditional for software.

Mark McGranaghan (00:36:41)

And I think we've had some good success with it. But like you said, the proof is really in the market. So we'll see.

Adam Wiggins (00:36:47)

Another potentially counterintuitive piece of how ideation works, particularly ideation across a set of people, is what I would call the asynchronous component. I think when you naturally think of group ideation, you think of live brainstorming, a very real-time aspect. And indeed, a lot of when we think of collaborative tools, like a Google Docs, we are thinking of that very real-time nature. You're seeing someone typing in the document.

Adam Wiggins (00:37:14)

But I think for sure a big part of having good ideas and developing them over time is the, like you said, the taking a walk. And that has this asynchronous or spread out across time. You often have talked about things like letting stuff stew or feeding your sleeping mind and you literally sleep on the problem and come up with another idea. And I think there's a version of that within a group as well, bouncing ideas back and forth in a kind of virtual sense.

Adam Wiggins (00:37:42)

And that's a very interesting overlap with something that I think is a big part of the emerging best practices around remote work, which is embracing asynchronous. And some of that comes from this practical aspect of, like, hey, you've got people across time zones, so if everything has to happen in synchronous meetings, then it makes it real tough for people. And so there's a practical element of it.

Adam Wiggins (00:38:03)

But I actually think that when it does come to many types of the work pipeline, and that early stage of ideation is one piece of it, there is parts that really benefit from real-time, live energy. And there's other parts that actually suffer from that, that if you don't have the time and space to go off and have your own thoughts separate from the group, the combined group idea is going to be worse than it could be.

Mark McGranaghan (00:38:29)

Yeah, this to me is very important, especially as we get into Muse for teams. Again, there's this very caricatured model of ideation, which is everyone gets into a room, you have a brainstorm and out comes the ideas. The reality is so much messier. You have individual to group back again, you're bouncing around among individuals, you're bouncing around among different levels of fidelity.

Mark McGranaghan (00:38:53)

The ideas get mutated, even corrupted as they get passed from person to person, sometimes they bounce like all the way around the circle and come back to you in a different form, telephone style. There's all kinds of wild stuff that happens in that full process, almost like this pulsating network, right, with all kinds of weird patterns happening is what's really needed to produce good ideas. So the substrate, the tool needs to embrace that. And that's one thing that I think Muse is doing pretty well.

Adam Wiggins (00:39:18)

Now, it's no secret that we're going to have a lot of these kind of big ideas or counterintuitive insights or philosophies behind what we're building here with the collaborative product. That's also true, of course, with the personal tool and that element. Many of those same ideas are obviously going to come across like ideation being a little bit, being freeform or even messy. But one question that came from someone on our Discord, that's Antoine RJ Wright, in his question he asked about tools.

Adam Wiggins (00:39:47)

But I think the underlying thing is that if you have a group working together and they have different styles or different approaches, how do you resolve that? And so, for example, we think that spatial visual

Adam Wiggins (00:40:18)

Okay, well, for a personal tool, that's fine, because of course, you can just pick the one that fits your brain. But once you're on a team, you kind of all need to agree about a tool, but also working practicers, and so on. a tool, but also working practices. So to answer Antoine's question, how do we see about trying to have a team come together around tools if indeed when it comes to something like thinking tools, it's so personal and so about what fits with your mind?

Mark McGranaghan (00:40:47)

This is such a fascinating question. And I'm not surprised that it's come from Antoine, one of our earliest and best customers. I almost challenged the kind of framing that you had of how do we get people who are currently using disparate tools to use a more unified approach, which I'm sure is probably one personally likes and approves. So that question could actually mean different things. It could mean how do we help the group converge on a tool or set of tools?

Mark McGranaghan (00:41:12)

Or it could be how do you manage the chaos and complexity of people using different tools? And I think there's different answers to both those. But maybe we can take the framing of how do we get some convergence? I have a couple thoughts here. One is a very powerful truism that I heard about management is people don't show up to work to do a bad job. It's one of those that sounds so simple when you say it, but it's very easy to catch yourself basically making that implicit assumption. So why are people coming into work using old tools?

Mark McGranaghan (00:41:41)

There's some reason. So you gotta have some curiosity about what their context is, what their personal history is, why they think this is the best way for them to do a good job. So I counsel curiosity there, which is hard to take much further without additional context on the team. But that's one idea. Another sort of management pattern that I might advise here is starting with a single person. So often people present these leadership challenges of there's this group and I want the group to do something different.

Mark McGranaghan (00:42:09)

Why can't group X? The thing is groups don't do things. People do things. So the way to start is to find one individual human being and to convince them and help them have success with a new path. And this actually has several important benefits. One is it forces you to confront concrete details, because it's easy to speak in abstractions when you're talking about the group. The group is using old tools. The group is using too many tools.

Mark McGranaghan (00:42:30)

The group is using tools that like, well, when you talk about what Alice specifically is using and why, again, you're getting grounded in the details. Another thing is that it's much easier to convince a group when there's already one person convinced. They become a sort of lieutenant who can help you advocate for the tool and affect the rollout when there's often a lot of mechanical stuff that needs to happen. I don't know how well that actually answers his question, but those are some of the things that came to mind for me.

Adam Wiggins (00:42:55)

Well, I think this is why it's interesting to think about this question in the frame of we have a bunch of weird, hopefully interesting, hopefully compelling ideas about what a group ideation space could look like or remote first group ideation space could look like. But you could imagine that there are some folks that that resonates with and others that it doesn't. And I think maybe that's okay. Maybe they have, again, their minds work differently or they have different kind of motivations for how to hook into the work.

Adam Wiggins (00:43:27)

But part of the idea is that, you know, if you develop ideas or part of our hypothesis, if you develop ideas together as a group, you have shared ownership over those ideas. And then when you go to implementation, you're more on the same page in a kind of figurative and literal sense. But then if different tools just don't suit everyone on the team and now you just need to find some consensus around that, I think there's always going to be some potential level of friction on that.

Adam Wiggins (00:43:55)

And some folks will just end up going along with tools they don't love or aren't the perfect fit for them vibe wise. But, you know, that's just what the rest of the team is using. So that's fine. And by the way, this is our Discord, which has been running for a while. Some great discussion there. It has been up until now just for pro members. You get a link from your backstage pass. But by the time this episode airs, it should be possible for anyone to join.

Adam Wiggins (00:44:20)

So I'll put a link there in the show notes and pop in there and you can propose questions for future episodes slash comment on this one. Now, another question from Discord is from Robert Stevens, and he basically asks, how do we think about hybrid in office and remote? Mark, you had referenced earlier that we've had experience with all pieces of the spectrum. So what do you stand on the feasibility of that or the techniques that work there? Or maybe that's the future that actually blends the best of both worlds?

Mark McGranaghan (00:44:51)

Yeah, maybe actually have less experience with this. I mean, everyone who used to work in office has some nominal experience of just didn't go to the office one day for whatever reason.

Mark McGranaghan (00:45:00)

This one's interesting because I think it's pretty easy and I think it's likely that firms will evolve from the all local position into this. This is the, okay, we concede after the pandemic that the whole world didn't stop, so therefore Tuesdays and Thursdays you can work from home, right? But it's kind of a one-way ratchet.

Mark McGranaghan (00:45:19)

Not only can you not easily bring that back in, by the way, there's a whole sub-dread on the Wall Street firms trying to bring people back to the office five days or having a really tough time, but even more obviously you can't bring a globally distributed firm and say, oh, now we're going to do partially remote and partially local. It's kind of all or nothing to be able to have more than zero days at a given local office. So, I think there's only a future to this.

Mark McGranaghan (00:45:45)

I think there's a lot by volume to this of a lot of currently all or mostly local firms are going to adopt some element of working remote part of the time, but I think it's harder to see existing highly distributed groups coalescing around single locations. But I wouldn't write off the possibility. There's also the mechanism of the summit, which maybe we can talk a little bit about where you get this, but in a different way, which is you are remote part of the time.

Mark McGranaghan (00:46:11)

Maybe it's seven out of eight weeks and then one out of eight weeks you meet up somewhere. But that place isn't where you maintain your primary residence, right? It's some place that you pick off Airbnb.

Adam Wiggins (00:46:21)

Yeah, my personal experience with hybrid, which we did quite a bit of at Heroku towards the end of my time there, was trying to kind of plug remote people into an in-office culture was really challenging. First you get into all kinds of just AV stuff, trying to like mic up conference rooms and things and we spent a lot of money, if I recall correctly, trying to get the perfect setup there in the end. The thing that worked best was for everyone to be on their own laptop with their own headset, even if they were in the same room, for example.

Adam Wiggins (00:46:52)

And in that sense, what you're describing, which is starting from a remote first or distributed team kind of as the baseline, and then you come together in some location, whether that's a coworking space or an office pod or a team summit or something like that, where you kind of go from remote as the default and then choose to gather at certain times and places. And those times and places could be a lot. It could be an office two days a week or three days a week.

Adam Wiggins (00:47:18)

And that's the kind of, I don't know if you want to call it upgrade or the escalation of both bandwidth and cost to the individual people that come together and that your default state is virtual.

Mark McGranaghan (00:47:31)

Yeah. And now I'm realizing there are at least two very different meanings of hybrid, which at least I didn't differentiate in my answer, so I wasn't even sure if I've answered the original question correctly. But there's hybrid in the sense of everyone is on the same local remote schedule, or at least on some local remote schedule. Like everyone in the office three days a week and everyone not in the office two days a week. And there's hybrid of 70% of the people live in San Francisco and 30% of the people live somewhere else.

Mark McGranaghan (00:47:58)

So the former, I think there's quite a future for. The latter, I share the sentiment that that was very difficult. Not only was it difficult, it can be a little bit corrosive because if people who uproot their lives to move to San Francisco might do that because they enjoy and value the in-office collaboration environment. And so adding the remote element can be a detraction for them, just in and of itself. Not to mention it's incredibly difficult for the people who are remote and the firm overall to metabolize that. So it can be done.

Mark McGranaghan (00:48:26)

It's just really against the grain. Just to give you one example, it's very often the case that the senior leadership of the company is coincidentally all located in the HQ. And it's often the case that a lot of important decisions and meetings don't have the correct conveyance via the remote channels like Zoom and Google Docs or whatever for people who are remote to fully plug into those decisions. It's kind of like our friend Peter van Hartenburg's statement that diligence doesn't work.

Mark McGranaghan (00:48:52)

Like if there's a way for this stuff to go off the rails, it will. And so the only way to make it work is like basically force everyone through the remote channels. Even if you're in the office, go into a phone booth and dial into Zoom like everyone else. That I think can work. It just gets kind of weird at that point.

Adam Wiggins (00:49:07)

Yeah, it's always funny when you see some open office plan office with a bunch of folks sitting at their computers with their noise canceling headphones on Zoom calls and sort of begs the question of why we need these bodies together in the same physical place. And again, you could probably talk about hallway conversations and lunch bonding and so forth. And the ability to, in some cases, kind of upgrade to a meeting person. But I agree the synchronization on when you're going to be together and when you're not is quite key to success.

Adam Wiggins (00:49:40)

Well, maybe we could just take a moment then to briefly talk about the mechanics. I don't think we need to go too deep here, but we have a few techniques that worked pretty well for us on the Muse team. You want to describe those briefly?

Mark McGranaghan (00:49:52)

Yeah, maybe we can focus on the ones that I think are a little bit more unique or differentiated versus, you know, write stuff down on Slack so people can see it. You know, yes.

Adam Wiggins (00:50:46)

And the core hours concept was one we came up with at Inc. & Switch, and even we have a special notation for it. It always sort of rubbed me the wrong way a little bit. To declare a particular time zone as the company time zone, that sort of implies... that. IC... asynchronously that,

Mark McGranaghan (00:51:05)

place is the center of the universe and everything else orbits around it. Yeah, unless it's UTC, which just makes everyone mad. Right.

Adam Wiggins (00:51:10)

At least then, no one is the center of the universe, just everyone has to suffer.

Mark McGranaghan (00:51:14)

Yeah.

Adam Wiggins (00:51:16)

And then, yes, we'll get to the next point, which is the new-eastern time, which also suits the particular distribution of our team. I suppose that if you had quite a lot of folks who are based out of Australia or India or Singapore, you might want to do something a little different. But for us, it works that new and eastern time is start of core, and then we can declare something as, you know, most of the time you can have a meeting, let's do it at start of core, we'll do the demo at start of core plus one, something like that.

Adam Wiggins (00:51:47)

members is that you're available for synchronous work during that time. That's not to say it's back to back meetings. In fact, hopefully it should not be. But the idea is during core hours, if you say, oh, you know, I have a bunch of questions about this code review you gave me, can we just jump on a quick programming session that there's high likelihood that they will be available kind of in the same way with a nine to five in an office. Those are sort of these, you can call them working hours. That's not quite correct.

Adam Wiggins (00:52:12)

They're really collaborative, synchronous, collaborative hours, and that you do the rest of your work on whatever other time of day you want to.

Mark McGranaghan (00:52:23)

I still remember very vividly when I was an engineer at Heroku and we had one day a week, I think it was Wednesdays, maybe it was Thursdays, where— You think you'll make it Thursdays?

Adam Wiggins (00:52:33)

Yeah, I think it was Thursdays.

Mark McGranaghan (00:52:34)

Yeah, where there were no meetings. And I would look forward to that day every week, because even one meeting in the middle of your working block really throws you off as an engineer. This goes back to the old PGSA, which I'm sure we can link, but it's so true. But the nice thing about the core hours is you have a big block every single day for doing the maker work, and it makes a huge difference.

Adam Wiggins (00:52:58)

Yeah, absolutely. I think it's sort of a feature, maybe an embrace the constraints type of thing, that you have to fit all your synchronous meetings into this more limited chunk of time, you know, for me, it's around two and a half, three hours. I've got to fit all my meetings for the day into three hours, and the rest of the time is essentially by default open.

Adam Wiggins (00:53:20)

And that means, first of all, of course, getting to work when I want to, when is the most productive and creative time for me, but also it implies that, you know, if you think of a, say a seven-hour workday, three hours are the synchronous time. Well, then you got four hours. That's a really solid block or two really pretty solid blocks of deep work. And focus. And yeah, that's just an incredible thing. Now you mentioned the Summits previously. How do those work?

Mark McGranaghan (00:53:48)

The intuition with Summits was that you weren't going to have enough very high bandwidth collaboration and relationship development if everything was totally remote, if you never saw your collaborators face to face. But we didn't want to solve that by having everyone in the company move to San Francisco or whatever. So the idea that we had, and I think we borrowed this from Incan Switch, who's been doing something similar for a while, is Summits where everyone works remotely.

Mark McGranaghan (00:54:15)

And then with some frequency, every two months or 10 weeks or whatever, the whole team meets at some location, which can be different each time. It might be Mexico City or Philadelphia or Aspen or whatever, right? You can kind of pick a location that's convenient for the whole team to get to. And then you do, you know, two, three, four days, maybe, maybe it's about a week with travel on either side. Where you take advantage of everyone being in the same place.

Mark McGranaghan (00:54:38)

So that's where you might do things like, you know, relationship development, bringing new members into the team, roadmapping, making strategic decisions, making big calls as a group, things like that can happen at Summits. And then you take that back for the next 8, 10, 12 weeks, and build on that day to day with your work. And then it starts anew with the next Summit.

Mark McGranaghan (00:54:59)

And then also naturally leads into a sort of chapter rhythm, as we call it, where corresponding to each Summit interval, you've taken this heads up moment, you've got a refreshed and clarified direction corresponding to what we call chapters.

Adam Wiggins (00:55:13)

Yeah, I think the Summit technique works really well. It creates a natural rhythm. It kind of takes some elements of what you get from being in the office together. Those human bonding moments, the gaining of ambient context, this culture transmission. It sort of packs it all into this one week every two months or four months. Or half year, whatever your rhythm is. Which is probably not as good in some ways, but I think it's probably like 80, 20. It's probably 80% as good for 20% of the effort. You still get all the value of flexibility.

Adam Wiggins (00:55:47)

You do have this challenge of travel, depending on where folks live. And you need to be sort of able to travel, which is not totally possible or easy for everyone. But sort of compared to moving someplace, it's certainly vastly easier. And so you get to get a lot of that. And by the way, you put it together with, yeah, going to an inspiring destination. Whether it's an urban place, we've done a few cities. Whether it's a rural place, we've done some nice nature retreats.

Adam Wiggins (00:56:15)

And that's something about being in an inspiring, creative space with folks that you don't get to see in person all that often. You're doing these big zoom out, yeah, strategic, what's the next end month's going to hold? What do we want to do? What do we want to accomplish as a team? All that stuff. That combination of things is just a really potent brew. I've come to quite look forward to them.

Adam Wiggins (00:56:37)

And I just find it to be a, not necessarily a complete replacement for the in-office culture, but kind of a parallel thing that serves a lot of the same purposes. Better in some ways, certainly worse in others, but also just has its own perks and benefits that I've come to quite like. Including, by the way, we've talked about in how to have good ideas that in many cases, just being in a new place and a novel surroundings can spark new ideas.

Adam Wiggins (00:57:05)

And I even remember in many cases, a particular thing that developed into a major new product or feature or initiative that we had and I associate it with the place that we thought of it. Because we are going to these new places all the time for these kind of strategic big picture ideation sessions.

Mark McGranaghan (00:57:24)

I do feel that how often you do these will tend to vary with the nature of the company. Basically, how many critical decisions you're making, how often, how big a shift they are, how many new people you're trying to bring into the company. The more of those things, I think the more you need to do these with higher frequency.

Mark McGranaghan (00:57:42)

So when we started the company, that's almost definitionally when you're, things are the most uncertain, you're changing directions the most, you're making consequential decisions very quickly, you're bringing on new people, you're doing them quite often, I want to say once every eight weeks. And then at the other extreme, if you look at quite mature software companies, I think it's typical for them to do them once a year or maybe twice a year, at a big company summit with two to 5,000 people or whatever.

Mark McGranaghan (00:58:08)

And neither of those schedules would make sense for the opposite stage of company. It wouldn't make sense, I think, to try to find a company and then not see each other for a year. I also don't think it's practical to bring 5,000 people together every eight weeks, right? So there's trade-offs involved, and I think there's a natural correct cadence according to what your company is trying to do. And by the way, you can go the other way. You could say, you know, we need to make faster decisions. We're moving too slowly. We're being too static.

Mark McGranaghan (00:58:35)

I think you can go the other way and say, let's shake that up by getting together somewhere and almost try to spark new decisions and new connections.

Adam Wiggins (00:58:42)

Completely. Yeah, in a way, a summit is almost disruptive, but in a way that can be positive when you need to shake things up and reconsider and find what's next. But at the wrong rhythm or the wrong cadence would be disruptive in the negative way of you have your direction, everyone's executing, their heads down, and zooming out or going into divergent thinking mode is at best a distraction.

Mark McGranaghan (00:59:10)

Another thing that I'm realizing, just thinking out loud here, is that summits are a useful forcing function. So I think in general, and it's quite a general statement, but it's better to limit software efforts by time than by scope. Because when you do the latter, when you limit by scope, it just tends to go on forever. This is an empirical observation I have with many years of engineering. And with a summit, it feels really bad to carry through a line of work over the boundary of the summit unless it's a very deliberate long-term project.

Mark McGranaghan (00:59:38)

So you always find yourself wanting to wrap before a summit. And I think generally that's healthy and useful. And by the way, the urgency and the cadence of that is going to roughly correspond to the stage of your company. You know, you can have one-year efforts pretty easily if you're a very mature company, but that will kill you if you're a startup. So again, I feel like it works pretty well.

Adam Wiggins (00:59:54)

Yeah, that's true. I actually think of the feeling that we get on the team as the summit approaches.

Adam Wiggins (01:00:00)

So, the way that this kind of chapter approaches is, okay, we want to tie off loose ends, which is weird to say because we're going to do this little summit and then be back at work again. So, it's not like we're not going to continue working on the things we were working on before, but there is a sense of wanting to have some kind of interim conclusion or have reached some kind of milestone with all of our open projects so we can kind of clear our minds to think bigger picture and then have sort of a fresh start.

Adam Wiggins (01:00:28)

And we end up picking up the sort of next iteration of a particular project, which by the way is also something I like just in my personal work for taking holidays, which is if you've got that one week holiday booked, you know, you kind of need to just wrap up your open threads, your open discussions, get any meetings booked that you need to do, and everything else is just going to have to be put off for the future.

Adam Wiggins (01:00:49)

And it's most satisfying or maybe there's just a natural human desire to want to have a kind of sense of a conclusion, end of the season, you know, wrap up some storylines, and then you'll start some new ones in the next season.

Mark McGranaghan (01:01:02)

By the way, an important function of Summit, which I didn't mention, is celebration. This is something that's very easy to miss as a software team. You'll go working for years and years on something and don't celebrate your accomplishments. Again, looking back at my own history, I very vividly remember the celebration that you put together when we first launched production Postgres databases on Heroku or kind of the new version of that. And it's a small thing, but it really builds the energy of the team for picking up the next task.

Mark McGranaghan (01:01:28)

So something to be sure to include in your Summits.

Adam Wiggins (01:01:31)

Well, maybe as a place to end, I think we've been largely positive in talking about remote work, but I think we're mostly thinking about our own experience and our own little company. On a broader scale, do you think remote work really is going to work in the long term?

Mark McGranaghan (01:01:50)

So I think this is a fascinating question, and my position is that I think people need to have more humility and curiosity about this. It is highly not obvious to me whether and how this is going to work out. And furthermore, I think it's not really possible to know for a reason that I can explain, but it's so important and so consequential. And I see a lot of basically flippant remote work partisan in either direction. There's so much to it. I would just encourage more curiosity and thinking through all the different things.

Mark McGranaghan (01:02:17)

One example that's incredibly important is the coasting effect. So a lot of people got in-person training, went to work at an in-person firm for 10 or 20 years, developed networks in person over the course of their entire life. They go remote for a year. It's like, this works great. I can work from anywhere now. I'm very productive. My company is very productive. Okay, yes, maybe. How much of that is due to the in-person momentum, basically, that you built out and that one is now coasting on? And how much could be replicated for Scratch?

Mark McGranaghan (01:02:52)

So as a thought experiment, if through the course of your entire schooling, your entire training, the founding of your company, including finding a co-founder, you never were in person, you were never at some hub or whatever. And how well would that work? I think that's a very interesting thought experiment. And I can go on and on about this, but I think there just needs to be more curiosity and patience about how this might actually play out.

Adam Wiggins (01:03:13)

Yeah, the early stages of the career is a great point. Even just thinking about kind of how individuals work together. We started Muse, me, you and Yulia, but we had all worked together in offices in person quite a bit. You and I at Heroku, me and Julia at Clue. And we already started with this baseline of knowing and trusting each other and understanding each other's work styles in that way.

Adam Wiggins (01:03:39)

And then you add in the, yeah, you're at the beginning of your career, you're trying to pick up tacit knowledge about how certainly a company works, but also how people in your field work, what the customs are, what the best work practices are. And there's just so much of that you can absorb by being in the same physical environment. And so, yeah, we basically don't know yet. And we certainly need more data.

Mark McGranaghan (01:04:05)

Yeah, and I think we really owe it to people who are earlier in their careers or changing careers to be mindful that they're in a very different situation. Again, I think it's very easy to say that this is all smooth sailing, but basically leave out people in that situation. I think it would actually be useful for someone to go and do some investigation on that. I'm sure some people have looked into it a little bit. But what if you just interviewed 100 people who are starting out in their career, but have to learn everything over Zoom? I don't know.

Adam Wiggins (01:04:30)

I feel like that'd be really hard.

Mark McGranaghan (01:04:31)

But one can only know empirically. And speaking of empirically, the matter of firms being all local or all remote or some mix is going to be determined empirically by their success and flourishing. As much as we might like to be able to work from wherever we want, the bulk of the jobs are going to be determined by which companies effectively deliver software to users who value it. And again, I think that takes a long time to play out. I think you need five or 10 years anyways. And you might even need something like 20 years.

Mark McGranaghan (01:05:03)

And you might need much longer than that if you want to get the full lifecycle of you've kind of cycled through all the momentum from previous in-person networks, skills, firms, and so on. So my humble pie answer here is we might not know for like 40 or 50 years how this exactly works out. And in the interim, we should keep an open mind.

Adam Wiggins (01:05:23)

Well, let's wrap it there. Thanks, everyone, for listening. If you have feedback, write us on Twitter @museapphq or via email, hello@museapp.com. And Mark, I'll see you in our virtual office.

Mark McGranaghan (01:05:38)

Yeah, well Adam, I'm very glad this remote revolution of sorts has allowed us to continue to work together, even though we ended up on different sides of the world.